Why I Will Not Boycott Amazon…A Mom’s Thoughts on the First Amendment

The social media universe was abuzz today with the announcement that resulted in many calling for the boycott of Amazon.com weeks before the holidays.

Phillip R. Greaves recently self-published the Kindle title The Pedophile’s Guide to Love and Pleasure. The editorial description (typos included) is as follows:

This is my attempt to make pedophile situations safer for those juveniles that find themselves involved in them, by establishing certian rules for these adults to follow. I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught.

Admittedly at first glance, I agreed with the world. The book should be banned. I’m the parent of two small children. Goodness knows I don’t want more pedophiles in the world nor do I want them to know how to commit crimes and not get caught!

But as a librarian-type and Communication major I am well-versed in First Amendment Law and have also been well-trained in the subject of intellectual freedom and the freedom to read. Books, art, and other materials exist that we don’t agree with. But the key question here seems to be should one be permitted to publish materials that help people to commit crimes? Should Amazon or other publishers publish such materials?

Other works that come to mind are:
The Anarchist Cookbook that contains instructions for the manufacture of explosives, rudimentary telecommunications phreaking devices, and other items.”

Hit Man: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors that provides detailed instructions about how to…execute and cover up a murder. Apparently this book did cross a line. From pbs.org:

  • In 1993, a man named James Perry followed the author’s instructions, killing three people. Subsequently, relatives of the deceased successfully sued Paladin for aiding Perry in the murders.
  • The Fourth Circuit stated that in order to charge a publisher with aiding and abetting a crime, the publisher must intend for people to use the article to commit an illegal act. In coming to its decision, the court noted that Paladin’s book was “so comprehensive and detailed that it is as if the [author] were literally present with the would-be murderer” during the crime.

First Amendment 101

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The law has its limits and has been refined through the years with rulings on obscenity, pornography, slander, even the right to criticize the government (Jon Stewart anyone).

The court ruling that seems to apply most to Greaves’ book is the Brandenburg Test.

Merely teaching or advocating unpopular ideas must be distinguished from teaching or advocating the duty, necessity, or propriety of acting on those beliefs. The right to speak and organize cannot be abridged no matter if the group’s message and purpose are repugnant to American values (such as KKK speech). In order for government to intervene, the speaker must subjectively intend incitement (imminent evil), use words which are likely to produce action (imminent action), and openly encourage or urge incitement (suggesting, for example, it’s a duty to commit a crime).

Source: http://faculty.ncwc.edu/mstevens/410/410lect08.htm

I followed the story on and off today. According to TechCrunch, Amazon defends the book remaining for sale on their site:

Amazon believes it is censorship not to sell certain books simply because we or others believe their message is objectionable. Amazon does not support or promote hatred or criminal acts, however, we do support the right of every individual to make their own purchasing decisions.

I decided the only way to make a reasonable decision about this was to actually read the book which meant I had to buy it.

I paid the $4.79 for the book and cringed a little at the thought that this is the first ebook I’ve ever bought.

My Facebook friends were shocked that I bought the book.

Even my husband was shocked and a little angry when he found out I used our his Amazon account to buy this book. He even asked me to publicly post a disclaimer that I bought it for research and that he is not interested in the content of the book at all. I hereby attest to that. Please don’t arrest my husband because I bought this book.

My Review

The table of contents:
Facts and Fallacies
Two Tales of Pedophilia
What Can Be Learned
The Animosity of Parents
The Roots of Pedophilia

Initially the book is quite tame and I see an honest account of one man’s struggle with his sexuality. Just like the atrocious summary posted on Amazon.com the writing is filled with typos. The author attempts to separate a  pedophile or “one who loves children” from a child molester or someone who sexually abuses children. When one hears the word pedophile one thinks of children. The focus of this book however is on relationships between adolescents and adults. Greaves advocates masturbation rather than physical contact with anyone under the age of 18.

At this point Greaves has passed the Brandenburg Test. He is explicitly telling people not to commit a crime. In fact it is so bold that I have to wonder if it was done on purpose to remain within the bounds of the law.

The second chapter contains explicit, first-hand accounts from adolescent boys who have had sexual encounters with men. The content is probably disturbing to most people.

The rest of the book takes an unexpected turn as Greaves suddenly descends into guiding principles such as (typos once again included), “Patients is a virtue. That much is true, but it is also a doorway to friendship and love.” There are also explicit guidelines of what kind of touching and sexual acts are appropriate versus inappropriate. The rest of the book, hundreds of pages, all contradict the opening statement:

The change in tone and content is so rapid that I have to go back and forth to make sure I didn’t miss a transition.

Conclusion

The book is poorly written, sexually explicit, and will offend and/or anger many readers. Personally I do not agree with a single statement in the book. Personally I have a lot of opinions about the author. However the issue at hand is not what I personally believe, think, or feel.

The author has a federally protected right to express his thoughts. Are some of the depictions in the book illegal? Yes. Does the author suggest it’s a duty to commit a crime? Not at all. Does he advocate the duty, necessity, or propriety of acting on his beliefs? No.

In my opinion, much as I don’t like it, the book passes the Bradenburg Test. No matter how poorly written or disagreeable the content is, I must admit that it was a fascinating to see a glimpse  into the mind of a pedophile. As a mother I learned some things that might protect my children. As a mother I learned some things to look out for.

The Boycott of Amazon.com

I understand the argument. Amazon.com is a business and has a right to censor materials. However Amazon.com allows individuals to self-publish to Kindle. Amazon DTP has the following policy:

5.1.3 Digital Book Rejection. We are entitled to determine what content we accept and distribute through the Program in our sole discretion.

I will not boycott Amazon.com for selling this book. There are probably other books that Amazon.com sells that I don’t agree with or might find offensive in some way. I choose not to buy those books just like I choose what I watch on TV or listen to on the radio.

I will not boycott Amazon.com if they decide to refuse selling this book either. This has already received more attention than was warranted. In fact, I think we’ve all been part of a brilliant social media publicity campaign to promote this book–a book that most people would have never heard of.

To me the bigger issue is how quickly the crowd turned today and turned this into a witch hunt. I’m surprised at how many called for the boycott of Amazon.com. I would love to know how many of the people who called for this boycott actually read even an excerpt (which is free) of the book. When did we start judging books by their covers…or titles? Is this book dangerous? Probably not. Will this book cause someone to become a pedophile? Not unless he or she was already so inclined. Did I learn something? Yes. However because of the title many made a judgement about the book. I wonder if people will judge me because of this blog post?

I don’t want to live in a society where censorship is expected or the norm. Do we want Amazon.com censoring material any more than we want the government censoring material? If you don’t like it, don’t read it.

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  • elizabeth

    what an excellent, measured response. thank you.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Thanks Elizabeth!

  • http://www.chasingthecyclone.com Peter Thomas Senese

    Thank you Lori for taking the time to read this book and write a thoughtful analysis of the subject at hand. I too am a great supporter of the First Amendment; however, I am also an unbreakable supporter of good parenting. First let me say that I deeply appreciate your personal disgust with the trash at hand, and having two children yourself, I know this was very courageous for you to share your perspective not to boycott Amazon. That said, this book promotes illegal sexual acts against our children, and is in fact very much a ‘How To Guide’. For this, and for many other obvious reasons, I disagree strongly with your view, but understand your defense of our critically important First Amendment. This said, Amazon had the discretion to remove this book; their failure diminishes whatever goodwill they have built in our community. Perhaps you might have a different perspective if you have seen first hand those who have been brought into the world of human slavery. And make no mistake, these paths are linked very tightly together. And though I strongly disagree with your view on the boycott, I stand with you in utter disgust on the subject matter of this …. piece of trash.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Peter, Thank you for your thoughtful comments and I also enjoyed the dialog on Facebook. This is one of those tough issues that will be discussed in Media Law classes for years to come. The sad truth is had this not gotten so much attention today, the book would have faded into oblivion. I have to admit that at first glance I did not expect this to turn into a how to guide. The free excerpt has a completely different tone. I was shocked after purchasing the book to see how graphic and detailed it was. But I did learn something about the thinking and motives of a pedophile. To me that was valuable learning so that I might protect my children.

      If it weren’t for Amazon he would have found another way to get this information out there. Maybe this will start a new dialog among every day people that from what you say is much needed about bigger issues in health and welfare of children.

      -Lori

      • http://www.chasingthecyclone.com Peter Thomas Senese

        Thanks, Lori. I hope you’re right about creating dialogue for issues such as this.

  • http://bovinesituation.wordpress.com Tina

    I told my DH about this book and he didn’t believe it until he saw that this book wasn’t hype, it was a real book for pedophiles. Ugh. Disgusting.

    I’m glad you read it though because now I know at least one person who has an educated opinion on this book.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Thanks Tina. I really appreciate your thoughts here and on FB. This is such a taboo topic and it’s one that needs more discussion. The only way we can ever understand the people who think and believe things like this is to talk to them and read their books. Censorship does not ever end with learning!

  • Leslie

    You mention having learned some things that help you as a parent to protect your children. Might you expand on what to watch out for?

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Leslie, What I’ve learned is that there is a difference between an evil pedophile and a person who is attracted to children. It’s like the wolf in sheep’s clothing. We tend to stereotype child molesters. But there is also a person who falls in between–not what we would call normal yet not a classic pedophile. While both can and do inflict harm on children, we only talk about the one. It makes me think that there is a topic here that we need to talk about and understand because for every one classic pedophile out there who knows how many more there are that are mental pedophiles as opposed to physical.

  • http://bellesouth.blogspot.com bellesouth

    You could easily argue that works of fiction advocate murder, rape, incest, pedophilia, theft and any number of other crimes. The only difference is those works are established as fiction – and don’t have blatant titles and book descriptions.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Definitely! And this could have easily been turned into a work of fiction. In an interview I saw earlier the author admitted to trying to cause such a stir purposely with the title and description. He got exactly what he wanted. Maybe Oprah will have him on her show.

  • http://www.rapidusmedia.com Angela Cavallari Walker

    Thank you for taking one for the parental team. I was able to read an excerpt from this book before it was removed from Amazon, and quickly deduced that I lacked the Teflon stomach necessary for digesting this type of content. Would you mind sharing your copy with law enforcement officials?

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      If law enforcement wants to read it sure. I can’t imagine why they would. No crime has been committed here.

  • http://libralabrat@blogspot.com Bryan Trimm

    As a writer, a father, and a soldier…I give you great applause for this.

    That speech which we find most abhorrent is that which requires the most protection.

    I am planning a book on my deployment experiences, but there are those who will hate it, and will try to suppress it.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Thank you Bryan. When you finish writing that please let me know. I have been wanting to read a first hand account of what has happened in Iraq. Thank you for your service to the country. Reading your comment on here…today…it just makes me so thankful for all that our service people have done for this country.

  • Paula Bernstein

    Lori, I’m so thrilled to have found your blog. I thought I was the only blogger out there who was against the Amazon ban. Please do me a favor and check out my recent post on the topic and weigh in: http://su.pr/1PkcAE.

    One comment called me “the epitome of a failing & sick society” and another said they feel sorry for my kids.

    It’s certainly not easy standing up for your beliefs — especially when people misconstrue them to think you’re supporting pedophilia.

    • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

      Thanks for sharing that link Paula! I’m glad to know I’m not alone. I’m reading all the comments on Strollerderby now and wow…I’m glad to see a First Amendment expert weighing in. What a great discussion!

  • Alison

    A blog with rational comments and adult debate? Never! Thanks for your blog, Lori :)

  • Jennifer

    Thank you for a thoughtful and thorough examination of this issue. I was so dismayed at how fast this topic devolved into a mindless media frenzy; it was nice to see that there are still some people who can be rational and measured.

  • http://coldwater.2bewriter.com/ Hyacinth

    Excellent information! I have been seeking for anything like this for a while finally. Thank you!

  • SpicyColdNoodle

    I find it interesting that your post did not discuss financial/convenient service aspects of boycotting Amazon.
    I don’t doubt that censorship issue played a role. But it probably was very minor role. For most of people the decision was most likely based on weighting gain or loss of financial/convenient service due to the boycott. Here, the financial aspect also includes owning a Kindle and books purchased for the Kindle format. So for those Kindle owners, the financial loss is greater because boycotting would make decision about currently owned books more complicated.

    Let me make few direct comments about your post. You stated this: “However the issue at hand is not what I personally believe, think, or feel.” Look, people (including you and me) make decisions based on what we personally believe, think, or feel every day. What you are really saying here is that you made a moral decision to not make a decision based on what you think/feel about this book/author. But why? Unless you address financial/convenient aspect of boycott, I would guess that may be a reason. Other reason may be not understanding difference between censorship imposed by government and by a private business

    You also stated this: “I don’t want to live in a society where censorship is expected or the norm. Do we want Amazon.com censoring material any more than we want the government censoring material? If you don’t like it, don’t read it.” I don’t think you understand the difference between censorship imposed by government and by a private business (e.g. Amazon). We are not talking about government censorship here. We are talking about private businesses and they impose censorship all the times (e.g. what do you think Walmart/Amazon are doing when they don’t allow porn materials in their stores?). And yes I (I bet you do too) want to live in a society where censorship imposed by private businesses are expected and norm (else you are probably going to have hard time taking your kids to anywhere outside your house).

  • http://www.iambarkingmad.com Audrey Holden from Parents Take a Stand

    As one of the two mothers who was behind the huge Facebook page “!!!!Boycott Amazon….” and who is now the co-founder of the movement, Parents Take a Stand, and as someone who will in all likelihood not shop at Amazon again, I’d like to point out that you missed a huge point that our own legal counsel for PTAS is frequently pointing out…By publishing Greave’s book (and several others similar to it.), they violated two of their own content guidelines. This has been pointed out numerous times within all of the media coverage.

    When Amazon initially responded to all the noise they refused to take the book down, then they took the book down without issuing any sort of explanation. Now? Now they’ve been all too quiet when it comes to responding to this. When we did a little more searching we discovered that this is not the first time Amazon has made a grave mistake in judgment when it comes to selling something that violated their content guidelines, then when they realized it, they pissed off a lot of their customers in the way they handled it. This seems to be a trend with them.

    There is also still some question remaining as to whether Amazon was in violation of Masha’s Law.

    In short, As much as Amazon and other retailers) has a right to free speech, and to protect what they view as the free speech of their authors who self-publish via Kindle, as Americans we have a right to boycott a retailer who sells something we view as objectionable and as a means to promote the most heinous of crimes against those who are most vulnerable…our children. You don’t have to agree with what we’re doing, but please bear in mind, we have EVERY right to do it. Freedom of Speech goes both ways!

    • http://ParentsTakeaStand luna davis

      As a parent, no…as a human being, I find it intolerable to continue to use a site that makes money off of the victimization of children. From any country. Amazon’s decision to make money off this kind of thing is their choice. The wrong choice. Even their own TOS states they won’t sell this kind of garbage, yet the did, and then tried to hide behind the First Amendment. As grown ups in this crazy world, it’s up to us to do what we can to protect our children. Pedophilia is NOT be mainstreamable. It is an aberration, it is deviant and it is ILLEGAL. To turn a blind eye? No. Not me…there is no way to justify this kind of horrendous treatment of a child, NONE.

      To sit back and ignore it based on “The First Amendment says…” is ludicrous. Our founding fathers must be rolling around in their graves.

    • http://bovinesituation.wordpress.com Tina

      I don’t believe anyone said you didn’t have the right to boycott Amazon.com. If that’s what makes you feel better, go for it. But it’s doubtful that a few people boycotting amazon.com will make any difference.

      And no one is forcing anyone to read this garbage. If you don’t want to read it, don’t.

  • rachel

    Were you ever raped as a child? Do you have a son or know a man that was raped as a boy – by somneone who had a ‘fantasy’ about romantic love with him?
    UNTIL YOU DO and HAVE then no matter WHAT you say in defense of AMAZON or HOW MANY times you read the book, you WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND.
    For those of you who support her, I pray to God, Allah, Buddah – whoever- that your son, nephew, brother, NEVER gets raped and/or murdered.
    Might I remind you that the record speaks for itself. When the 2 paedophiles read how to “rape and escape” in the Paedophiles Periodical and gagged little Jeffery Culper who fought them until he died – then they RAPED his CORPSE.. all because they read it in a guide provided through Amazon. Amazon got out of court and never apologized.. as they refuse to do now. Boycotting Amazon is not the “solution” but it is forcing the MEDIUM through which sordid materials are FREELY sold, to TAKE responsibility and PROTECT children, so that situations like what happened to Jeffrey Culper – never happen again.
    It saddens me really to see that as a WOMAN and I assume Mother that you can so blatantly speak the way you do.. but hey.. thats YOUR right. I just think, personally, you are an educated fool who happens to be a major disappointment to all the children of the WORLD.

    • Sarah

      Rachel,
      Lori is a friend of mine, a respected colleague, and a fantastic mother. Calling her “an educated fool who happens to be a major disappointment to all the children of the WORLD” is not only a mean-spirited low blow, it proves that you either did not read or did not understand her post.

  • Sondrah

    Unfortunately, I think you forget to take into account that Amazon in a major retailer and the bulk of their business does not come from the sale of self-published ebooks. They shouldn’t market their club mom and diaper deals to parents in one breath and then accept works like this the next. They should have vetted it better and never accepted it. Years ago this author (used loosely) would have never found a publisher and been stuck making xerox copies at the local copy shop to sell his work on street corners. Technology made this work accessible, not a reputable publishing house and I think that needs to be taken into consideration. I also think this work would be labeled obscene at the state level in many instances.

  • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

    Parents needs to protect children, not corporations.
    Or will you blame the writer if someone kill someone else because he read a book about killers?
    It’s a nonsense.
    And once more, commenting a book you haven’t read seems childish to me.

    • Brenda

      Do you try to not apply critical thinking to your statements? It sure seems like it! As a parent I have a hard time protecting my kids when irresponsible companies like Amazon sell inciteful material such as the aforementioned book. Pro-pedophilia books encourage and support the abuse and rape of children, so even though I’m doing my best to protect my children, it certainly doesn’t help when someone like Amazon supports the sale of books that help criminals and perverts.

      My mother, sister, and husband were all sexually abused as children. Do you have anyone you love deeply who has been victimized? I bet not, and I also bet that the author of this blog doesn’t either. It’s really easy to talk about rights and how this book isn’t dangerous when you haven’t had an adult force you to have sex with them when you were seven years old, and then put a knife to your throat threatening to kill you and your parents if you ever told anyone.

      Until you are victimized or directly have to live with a victim, you can shove the first ammendment up your butt. It was meant to give us the freedom to criticize our government, and now we use it to publish “guides” on how to sexually abuse kids because hey, it’s a free country! With freedom comes the responsbility to do what is best for our society. How does this contribute positively, or do Americans just not give a shit about that anymore? It’s more important to let the criminals have their rights even if it means that their actions (writing books trying to legitamize the rape of kids) infringe upon the rights of innocent children!

      Pro-pedophilia books are a real threat to the freedom of kids to live without fear of being sexually abused because they incite and encourage this kind of criminal behavior. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? Get a clue.

  • Annabelle

    Oh goodie – the Boycotters have found the blog.

    It seems like all you care about is little boys (at least Rachel anyways). What about women like me, who was raped by a 23 year old when I was 11. I don’t blame my parents (I was well aware of stranger danger), any corporation and I certainly don’t blame a book. I blame a 23 year old man who made the decision to stuff a rag into my mouth, duct tape over it and rape me 3 times in an ally way halfway between my school and my house. Do I have anger over this? Yes. Did I go to therapy for years? Yes. Do I wish that 23 year old dead? No (although he did kill himself in prison while awaiting trail). Do I think boycotting a company that sells material that most people find offensive will help in any way? Of course not! I saw on your FB group that people were outraged that Amazon sold sex toys. Some of our husbands are serving in the Middle East and you know what? I need a little something to keep me company on while I wait for him to come home. Maybe if some of you got your own Battery Opperated Boyfriend you wouldn’t be so uptight.

    The answer to keeping our children safe is not to become Hover Parents (another thing people on the FB page seem to be in favor of — one women had a huge list of things she still tells her grown daughter to do to stay safe). Our job as parents is to give our children the information they need to stay safe, let them go out in the world (yes, even unsupervised!!!) and pray that they make good choices and stay safe. Over protective parents just make our children more vulnerable by “keeping them safe” instead of teaching them how to stay safe.

    I find this boycott completely ridiculous. Please keep your 700 members on your page instead of sending them here. If you cannot accept other people’s opinions, they will be less accepting yours.

    • Brenda

      Who buys sex toys through Amazon? Isn’t that what adult web sites are for? Also, it doesn’t sound like you have kids Annabelle. I also find it ironic that you call the parents on the FB page uptight, you don’t sound too happy yourself. Pot, meet kettle!

      • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

        Wow.. now the problem are also the sex-toys.. Wow.. what’s next? Lingerie? :)

      • Annabelle

        Actually, I now have 3 beautiful children who are the best children i could have ever hoped for.

        I brought this up with my group of army wives/mommies this afternoon. There were 16 other mothers there. Being that we’re in a very right- winged area, I figured I’d be in the minority. Only one mother is considering the boycott. The rest had heard about the book and it being taken down, but not the boycott and they couldn’t understand it either.

        Why would i buy my B.O.B. At a sex site? I’m not a big fan or pornography (nothing wrong with it, just not for me). I can get great deals on it on amazon!

    • http://www.iambarkingmad.com Audrey Holden from Parents Take a Stand

      Annabelle,

      Your statement is overly broad. We don’t care “just” about the little boys.

      Yes, I was sexually abused as a child all the while the abuser told me, “you are so pretty and I’m showing you how much I love and care about you. Someone as pretty as you should be loved like this, all the time!”

      So NO! It’s NOT just about the little boys!

      I am accepting and, get this, UNDERSTANDING of others opinions on the matter (BTW, the group and the page are two entirely different things, while started by the same people. The movement as a while has close to 17K people at this point!)and clearly am able to comprehend why people think this is a very slippery slope (or “gray area” – pick your cliche’!), when it comes to asking our retailers to not sell material like this that disseminates materials promoting and advocating illegal behavior, particularly illegal acts against children.

      You’re obviously still going to shop at Amazon for your own reasons. I can accept that. What I absolutely refuse to accept is someone who sits there and tells me how ridiculous it is and then in the same breath tells me to be more accepting of others opinions so that others will accept mine. Why can’t YOU just accept the fact that to a lot of us, find Amazon’s (and other retailers who sell this kind of stuff) actions unconscionable and will not patronize their businesses?

      • Brenda

        What’s also ridiculous is that in Annabelle’s small concept of the movement against companies like Amazon, is that we’re all just reactionary over-protective parents. This couldn’t be further from the truth. The fact that I don’t like pro-pedophilia material doesn’t mean I’m going to keep my kids in a box because I’m afraid the boogey man will get them. It just means that I find it incredibly offensive, gross, and ludicrous that anyone would defend publishing garbage like this! Of course I can’t keep my kids in a bubble, but I have the right to be fucking pissed off that anyone would come to the defense of a sick bastard who likes to touch small children and thinks it’s okay to have romantic relationships with them.

        Oh and I don’t care if anyone isn’t accepting of my opinion, they can screw themselves! It’s a FREE COUNTRY, remember.

  • Kate

    @Simone: I am a mother, and I AM protecting my children. One of the many means I am using to protect them is using my dollars to boycott Amazon, and refusing to buy diapers from Amazon-owned Diapers.com. Even before all this, when I was pregnant I read two books on how to PROTECT my child from pedophiles, one which was written by some kind of social experts and one which was written by a recovering pedophile. Both were incredibly informative, even if they were emotionally difficult to read. So I am taking responsibility for my own children, and I will still use my dollars to “speak” in a free market against corporate practices that I find abhorrent.

  • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

    @Kate read Annabelle post, then shut down your internet connection ’cause it’s used to bring all sort of porn all around the globe.

    @Annabelle thanks for sharing that.

    Sadly there are people that thinks about safety by hiding. Maybe they don’t know that an enemy is easier to be defeated when you know him. And how Lori said before: “As a mother I learned some things that might protect my children. As a mother I learned some things to look out for.” so better for her that read the book.. so she REALLY can PROTECT better children.
    Hiding something it’s not defeating it.
    Knowing it better gives you the power to the understanding of it that help in fighting.

  • http://bovinesituation.wordpress.com Tina

    How about the ppl boycotting amazon also boycott air travel due to the fondling of children and adults by the TSA?

    • Sondrah

      Tina, This is simply a ridiculous analogy and to be honest these type of arguments do nothing but demonstrate a clear inability to debate and discuss.

      • http://bovinesituation.wordpress.com Tina

        You’re right, it’s most likely not sexual but very obviously making people uncomfortable.

        But you’re right, name-calling is the way to go! You win. *sarcasm*

        • Sondrah

          Pretty sure I didn’t call anyone a name. And sarcasm is another tool that inhibits open discussion, so your intent seems clear to me.

      • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

        Like when you say: “Technology made this work accessible, not a reputable publishing house and I think that needs to be taken into consideration.” ???
        Are you taking a Quantum Leap in the past? Want to inhibit everyone ability to say wonderful things, share a novel, be the next Oscar Wild just because of a book? Wow…

        • Sondrah

          Simone, my point there is really underlying due to technology. The courts haven’t faced a real challenge of the first amendment since self-publishing became so wide spread.

          • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

            Maybe they should think more to prosecute child abuser than books…

  • rachel

    Anabelle,
    My point of reference is molested and raped BOYS as that is where my expertise is. Where GIRLS are more apt to eventually “speak out” about it.. BOYS DONT. I would not be so shallow as to assume that boys ONLY and not girls are at risk. Ultimately, it affects ALL CHILDREN!!
    When I read your post I actually feel sorry for you if you really think this is ONLY about Amazon. It’s a START. And rather than sit back, hands folded and say, “Oh its the way the internet is” at least I will die trying to protect children from a fate that YOU more than anyone else should understand.
    You stated that you went through theraphy, it sounds to me that you are bitter and probably still need in desperate need of some more. Maybe it is that all this AMAZON/Paedophilia talk has brought back bad memories for you? It surely did for me. I suggest that you not let your experience be in vain. Maybe if you joined a group to prevent what happend to you, from happening to other kids, then you would feel better.
    I wish you all the best.
    Rachel.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      You are just preventing that people see the existence of those books. You are not preventing the crime itself.. Take a pen and write it 100 times… You are not preventing anything…
      The only outrageous thing here is that you are Honestly and Deeply convinced that you are Actually doing something to prevent crimes.. sorry girls.. you’re NOT!

      • http://bovinesituation.wordpress.com Tina

        This. I highly doubt my molester bought a book of any sort to teach him how to molest or how to get away with it.

        • Brenda

          Are you psychic? Do you read minds? How the HELL would you know if he bought a book, magazine, video, etc. that helped him abuse you?

          I like how all the people who were sexually abused defend this…it’s like Stockholm Syndrome. That or you think your case was unique and YOUR fault…definitely NOT some book, right?

          Geez.

          • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

            LOL!
            The world is divided in three for you!
            1) Child abusers
            2) Child abusers defendant
            3) People that think that everyone else is a Child Abuser! :D

      • http://www.iambarkingmad.com Audrey from Parents Take a Stand

        @Simone,

        If everyone throughout the course of history thought this way, there would be no progress.

        • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

          If everyone burned every book they considered offending… well then the world wouldn’t be rounded and the earth would be in the middle of the universe with the sun going round and round.
          WOW That’s real progress!! What a wiseness!!

          • Brenda

            No one is talking about burning ALL offensive books. You’re being just as reactionary as the people you’re accusing of being reactionary! Are you that UNAWARE of your self?!

      • Sondrah

        Simone, The awareness and discussion about the subject will help prevent crime, however that was never my intent when considering a boycott. I simply don’t want a major retailer that markets itself as a family friendly store to sell smut like this uploaded material.

      • http://ParentsTakeaStand luna davis

        I can only hope it prevents crimes. What I’m trying to do is show companies they pay a price with what they sell. If you want to sell books on how to molest a child, you lose customers. That will speak if nothing else will. If you don’t care who you shop with, that’s your prerogative. It’s mine to care, and to make sure people KNOW who they are shopping with. When did it become a bad thing for a company to have standards and stick to them? When did adults decide that the right of some twisted wacko to spew his poison and instruct others on how to abuse children were more important than protecting the children? If he wants to sell his book, let him do it door to door.

  • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

    Thank’s Lory for the space you offered us all.
    I’d like you to thank for the analysis you made about the book.
    People are taking forks and torches and are taking an Holy War about freedom, actually against freedom.
    In the past a wise guy named Mentor told:

    “We explore… and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge… and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias… and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it’s for our own good, yet we’re the criminals.
    Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.”

    That was meant against corporations, sadly I have to say I need to defend freedom from may pair…

  • Brenda

    “LOL!
    The world is divided in three for you!
    1) Child abusers
    2) Child abusers defendant
    3) People that think that everyone else is a Child Abuser!”

    LOL! NO! You’re wrong, it goes like this for me:

    1) People who want to make a difference in the world by making it a better place no matter what it takes.

    2) People who either think the world is fine or that the world’s problems are too big to fix who do not CARE about making the world better.

    3) People who want to destroy the world like criminals, thugs, pedophiles, anarchists, etc.

    Which group do you fall under Simone? HINT! It’s not number 1!

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      You forgot 4)

      4) People like you that say that Tina and Annabel are Stockholm Syndrome’s victims just because they don’t boycot Amazon!

      Surely I’m not 4)

      • Brenda

        WRONG AGAIN SIMONE. I don’t give a crap if they don’t boycott Amazon, but I am SHOCKED that they would DEFEND pro-pedophile material. To me this isn’t about boycotting Amazon, it’s about me being against an entire sub-culture that considers itself to have a legitimate cause and that is SEX WITH CHILDREN.

        That is what people like you, Annabelle, and Tina do NOT get. It’s not just about Amazon, it’s about being against pedophilia in ANY form, PERIOD and being outraged that material out there exists to SUPPORT this heinous idea. It’s criminal at best, but we all know that it is MUCH worse than that.

        I’m not trying to cover the sun with the tip of my finger, I know very well that I cannot protect my or all children from all dangers of life, I also know that by boycotting Amazon and other companies who support and otherwise SELL pro-pedophile materials will NOT put a complete stop to childhood sexual abuse, but I think it’s WORTH THE EFFORT to help an innocent child out there who might be in the midst of a predator looking for a book on how he can get off with a kid, and face “liter sentences” (sic).

        If YOU don’t care about that stuff being out there or think that the problem is too big to eradicate, that’s your pesimissim! Be on your merry way and keep companies like Amazon in business and I’ll do my best to avoid them.

  • Donna

    While I fully support freedom of speech, it’s a simple fact that not ALL speech is protected. The Supreme Court has ruled that some forms, such as hate speech and pornography, are not protected by the constitution under the “harm principal”. Amazon’s own policy states that they don’t promote illegal activities. Clearly, pedophilia falls under both of those limitations.

    If someone chooses to not boycott Amazon, that’s fine with me. But for my part, I will avoid doing business with a company that chooses to profit off of the suffering and abuse of children. It falls in line with the rest of my life style including not buying products that are tested on animals and buying local and green when ever possible.

  • Lynette Packer

    Hello – In my opinion this whole issue goes way beyond Amazon. Barns Noble and Borders and others who have sold similar material – that is – written matter to encourage pedophiles to abuse/rape/murder/destroy children and families. The pedophiles launched their own pro – pedophillia PROPAGANDA campaign long ago. No amount of rationalizing and “educated” debate will change my opinion. Society needs only to be aware this is the Pedophiles plan. Manipulation of society as a whole.

    Boycotting Amazon should just be the beginning of a concerted counter
    PROPAGANDA campaign.

    I repeat: It’s time to wake up from the dream of innocence – and realize this is all part
    of pedophiles agenda to “normalize” their sick behaviour – they are proceeding with MISSIONARY ZEAL – to break down the barriers of society.
    It is called GROOMING/ concerted manipulation over a period of time.

    Pedophiles are MASTERS OF THE ART OF MANIPULATION.

    To drag out the free speech debate is an insult to any thinking persons
    intelligence. Who could in their wildest imaginings believe it was designed to protect pedophiles?

    1. The only good to come of this is that hopefully those who have not had abuse/molestation touch their lives will now go out and educate themselves. Maybe then they will have some idea of why so many people are outraged that Amazon and others have knowingly aided and abetted pedophiles.
    Outraged that some have defended the right of Amazon and pedophiles to distribute this MUCK!:

    2. That parents/child advocates around the world will discuss openly with children and parents the ways pedophiles “operate”. At the end of the day it’s my belief education is the only way to save children and families from the pain and suffering that peds leave in their wake.

    I believe BOYCOTTING companies who sell this material and bringing the information about it into the public forum is part of the education campaign.

    Ignorance is NOT AND NEVER WILL BE BLISS.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      “Lynette Packer Yup – posted on Lori Reeds blog – the lady is way out of touch with the REAL issue – and needs a wake up call – hopefully she will educate herself. Defending the right of free speech is NOT THE ISSUE!”

      I’m sure Lori don’t need a wake up call, and I bet she’s still educated.
      Defending the right of free speech IS THE ISSUE!
      No one with a certain degree of mental sanity would like that book.. It’s disgusting, but the book passed the Bradenburg Test so it’s not illegal itself, again… it’s disgusting… but not illegal!
      You continue to deny that a book about a murder and a book about pedophilia are the same… and that’s pretty illogic.

      • Sondrah

        Simone, I realize you aren’t an American and are overseas so you may not have heard of this, but I actually think the litmus test for this material should be Miller V. California. The Miller test is the gauge for obscene material using a three prong analysis.

        Here is the general info about the three prong approach to testing material – I took this from Wikipedia, so I cannot vouch for complete veracity, but I didn’t want you thinking I manipulated -

        1.Whether “the average person, applying contemporary community standards”, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
        2.Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,
        3.Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

        I think it fails all three and would be found obscene and thus not protected. But, I don’t know that Miller holds up as much as it used to either.

        • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

          “I think it fails all three and would be found obscene and thus not protected.”
          And your thought are based on your accurate reading and analysis of the book itself.
          Oh! Sorry! You just read the Title and the excerpts.. It’s too awful for being read!

          Well I think that my mom should be a train but she don’t have wheels..

    • Not a communication major…

      Aber mein Fuerher, ich haette glauben, dass wir die Jewden ausratten muessten!!!

      please excuse my poor German; I went to public school in America. The gist of what I was trying to say is Hitler would sympathize with you. I realize that because I took a history class; though that was in public school, as well (gotta be honest and fair) :/

      I may not have a degree, but I recognize simple historical anecdotes like that…what’s all your guy’s excuses? AND DON’T SAY PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

  • Not a communication major…

    “This is my attempt to make pedophile situations safer for those juveniles that find themselves involved in them, by establishing certian rules for these adults to follow. I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught.”

    Now explain to me using your fancy Communication major lingo how this translates to: “…Goodness knows I don’t want more pedophiles in the world nor do I want them to know how to commit crimes and not get caught!” (grammatical mistakes copied and pasted to form a PROPER QUOTE [elitist comment, of how a proper quote works, implicated to jab at your own])

  • Not a communication major…

    That Hitler comment was directed @ Lynette Packer, btw.

  • http://bit.ly/9asfNE Becky Jarvis

    Amazon has removed this and many other titles in the last few days.

    If you want to see what is left check this out:

    http://bit.ly/9asfNE

  • http://lorireed.com Lori Reed

    Wow there’s a lot of great discussion here. It’s obvious this topic is an emotional one. I can’t respond to all the comments tonight but I would like to ask everyone to please respect all thoughts and ideas posted here. We don’t have to agree but let’s try and have a discussion where we listen and respect all opinions.

  • Jo Hub

    Amazon has broken their own content guidelines by allowing this and numerous others like it for sale. So why even have them? What’s the point of having company policies in place if the company isn’t going to adhere to them?
    If their policy read “we will sell *anything*, I could and would respect that more than the repeated violations of their own policy/content guidelines with no more than a “oops” if that.

    If they are going to sell it fine. Sell it. But say so. Then I can make the decision if your the right retailer for me or not. What makes me angry is being lied to. Being told they don’t do that and yet do.

    I think we can all agree here Child molestation is an vile thing. Horrible beyond words. I think most agree the book (whether you beleive illegal or not) is horrendous garbage. The reason I choose to boycott Amazon is because of the above listed reasons.
    The hypocrisy did them in for me. Again if your gonna sell it and defend it then be men about it and just freakin’ say we sell it and don’t care from beginning. That’s a huge part of my reasoning. The rest are my personal beliefs that will remain..well personal. :)

    • Yup

      THIS is what did it for me also. I’m saddened by the fact that so many people are outraged at me for choosing not to do business with them. I have been openly ridiculed for my stance on this. I understand both sides of the argument… but… If it were a small local retailer, and not Amazon.com I seriously wonder if people’s attitudes would be a bit different? If this was some guy with a storefront in MyTown USA, would anyone care? I would, and I would choose not to shop at his store. Would I get cursed at and belittled by others for making that choice? I doubt it. Part of me wonders if some people are jumping to Amazon’s defense (before anyone lets me have it for this statement – I said some – not ALL) simply because it’s an issue of convenience for them to justify their money-saving purchases with Amazon.

  • momma_shea

    You all are getting over heated. The book is wrong and disgusting. Did he have the right to write it, YES! Does Amazon have the right to publish it and sell it, YES! Focus here people. Pedophilia is ILLEGAL. Correct, yes! Surely we can all agree on that. This book in question is about teaching how to be a pedophile correctly. To teach something that is illegal, is illegal. To sell something that is illegal is illegal. THAT IS THE POINT. Amazon is breaking the law by selling something which is illegal and should be called out on that. That is what this boycott started from. Amazon has a long track record of selling things which the government has deemed illegal. The boycott started after many many people tried to get them to remove the one book in question. They refused stating first amendment. First Amendment does not cover illegal activities. While all were waiting to see if the book would be removed MANY other “how to” books teaching MANY other things which were illegal have arisen. Amazon pulled the one book but not until they received thousands of emails, not until the media picked up on this and not until their stocks started dropping. They were mute and are still mute on this topic. They have since pulled many more items from their lists of sale. They are still mute on this. People now are trying to make it to where these type of material can not be published. YES people will still do it. Pedophilia has been around nearly as long as man and will be around till the end of man BUT that does not mean we have to allow the issue to be published and sold. In my opinion this author is wanting to normalize it so that people become accustomed to it and later to become the norm like fashion does. To stop it from becoming worse than it is, it has to be stopped before it goes further. Of course, I am not an educated woman, I can not debate anyone on all the legalities but morals, definitely. Amazon chose bottom dollar over morals and THAT is partly why the 17,000 people on the FaceBook group are outrage at Amazon as well as myself.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      Oh then, once againg…. Let’s talk about a book where someone is Murdered… About the Author… Did he have the right to write it, YES! Does Amazon have the right to publish it and sell it, YES! Focus here people. Murder someone is ILLEGAL YES …. Surely we can all agree on that.

      The point here is.. THE CRIME IS ILLEGAL.. NOT THE BOOK ABOUT A CRIME… it it was, then the author, would be in jail… Instead he’s under police protection… Guess what? The book is not illegal itself and the author is not a child molester.

      It’s absurd you all keep the point that the book is illegal! It’s bad written, it’s stupid, it contains things that makes me vomit.. but it’s not illegal!

      • momma_shea

        Please tell me then how this book is NOT illegal when it is to teach how to be a pedophile correctly? Because it is obvious you know something a lot of us do not know.

        • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

          Have you actually lost 5 minutes to read the BLOG POST OVER THERE or are you too busy with the boycot?

          Excerpt: “The best advice I can give pedosexual-pedophiles is this: recognize that masturbation is your best friend and avoid becoming sexually involved with actual minors of any age.”

          WOW What a dangerous advice about not been caught from police!!! It’s brilliant! For not been caught…. don’t commit the crime at all!!! WOW He’s EVIL!!! He try to escape from police investigation by… DOING NOTHING!
          Yeah momma_shea… this is a really dangerous hand book about how to be a pedophile…
          Now close the pc and spend some time with your children… it’s the best thing to do…

  • momma_shea

    Well I have not read the book, only exerts, have you? Lori apparently has and she said up above “are some of the depictions in the book illegal? Yes.”
    Depictions definition is to represent in words to describe. And I believe trying to not normalize a pedophile is the best thing to do at the moment because that is best for my children.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      Well, surely you, haven’t read the book, have more clues about the book than who actually read it.
      I think you should ban latex gloves factory too! Go go…
      Sorry.. the description of the book and some excerpt are disgusting to me too. But it’s not illegal at all. Live with that and go on..

      A bunch of people that decide to moralize the world starting from a “pedophile mass hysteria” originated by a book they haven’t read scares the hell out of me..

      • momma_shea

        Wow, I thought I would take a stab at having a discussion with you, but you will not allow that. You only want to be rude and mean. It is useless on my part to try discussing anything with someone like you. Thankfully the world is not full of people so full of hate like you appear to be.

        • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

          Full of hate? I just want books not to be banned for nothing! :)

          You told the book was illegal and a HandBook for Pedo criminals, without reading it.
          I shown you you are wrong using examples.
          Yes, it’s useless to talk to someone when you think you already have the correct answer.

          By the way you are wrong and I’m right: A flock of people that decide to moralize the world starting from a “pedophile mass hysteria” originated by a book they haven’t read scares the hell out of me..

          Sorry if you think I’m mean and rude just for pointing how wrong were you.. :)

          Did I tell you you were wrong? :)

  • Concerned American

    Geez, get a room, you two.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      LOL! No way! :)

  • http://ParentsTakeaStand luna davis

    Simone, you don’t have to step in the dog crap to smell it. I think the book’s title says it all. The author has said more. Why in the world would I read the book? I already know there is NOTHING I need to know about how to get away with having sex with children. Slice it anyway you want, Amazon dropped the ball here. Again, I’m not asking for a “ban”, I’m asking for a company to stand it’s ground on it’s OWN principles. I didn’t write their TOS for them, THEY did. I call upon them to follow it.

    • Simone ‘Striker’ Soldà

      Luna,
      1)you don’t have to step in the dog crap to smell it.
      Well true.. but a book usually don’t smell.

      2)I think the book’s title says it all.
      Don’t you know the golden rule: ‘don’t judge a book from it’s cover’?

      3)Why in the world would I read the book?
      Usually I read a book before telling someone else it suck.

      4)I already know there is NOTHING I need to know about how to get away with having sex with children.
      Lori told you the book isn’t pushing anyone from having sex with children.

      5)I didn’t write their TOS for them, THEY did. I call upon them to follow it.
      Which part of the TOS you think they haven’t respected? Because we are talking about slippery slope, but I still haven’t seen any children pornoGRAPHIC book or movie and so on..

      Do I like ‘children erotica’ books? No.. Do I like minors pornography? No.. Do I advocate child moleste? No..

      A book a book.

  • Otto Otowski

    Amazon also de-listed Tom O’Carroll’s “Paedophilia: The Radical Case” (1980) which was not a “how to” manual or even a “what to avoid” manual, but a look at what O’Carroll believes are the moral, criminological, anthropological and sexological issues surrounding paedophilia. Unlike Greaves’s text (I wouldn’t call it a book), O’Carroll’s was scholarly, contained many citations to serious books and articles, and it was published by Peter Owen, a legitimate publisher in the U.K. The book is part of the history of sexual politics in Britain. There was no reason for Amazon to de-list it.

    The people who are behind this amazon boycott are an interesting bunch. A large number of them are evangelical far right-wingers, white supremacists, Nazis and nuts. The mainstream media are their dupes — as now is Amazon. If people wonder why those who are so upset about Greaves’ e-text aren’t also upset about books that advocate genocide (which, after all, includes killing children, not just having sex with them), the answer lies in the politics of their bedfellows.

    I don’t think Greaves’ text had anything useful to add to the topic of either pedophilia or adult-child sexual contacts (which are two separate subjects). On the other hand, people who tell hysterical lies about non-existent publications like “the Paedophiles Periodical” or claim that any paedophile publication provides “how to” instructions for “rape and escape” (see commentary by “Rachel” above) also have nothing to add. They should be treated as extremists and liars — and ignored, especially when it comes to book bans.

    No one should get me wrong. Amazon has the “right” to de-list any and every book. But it should develop consistent policies and not give in to public hysteria and lies. Once it does, it’s a slippery slope. The people behind the boycott have a list of books. They’ll continue to try to get them down, even if it’s one at a time. Which one will be next?

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